Anna Kloth | Paradise Interns

Podcast: Anna Kloth | Paradise Interns

In this episode of the Conservation Careers Podcast we’re speaking to Anna Kloth, founder of Paradise Interns. Paradise Interns runs free digital marketing internships at leading dive centers in Indonesia. During your time they teach you how to run a successful digital marketing strategy for any company. You then get to use these skills by running the social media and digital presence of a local dive center, whilst also enjoying free diving and scuba training. Calling in from Komodo National Park, on the island of Flores, Anna shares what it’s like to work as a dive instructor – the highs and lows – and the growing opportunities for you to become a digital nomad. Working online as you travel the globe. We also talk more about Paradise Interns and explore what to look out for when finding your next volunteer opportunity or Internship…

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Audio Transcript

NICK:  Ok well hi guys, it’s Nick Askew here from Conservation Careers, welcome to the podcast. Joining me on today’s podcast is Anna Kloth from Paradise Interns. Anna is the founder, mentor and apparently you-snort-when-you-laugher at Paradise Interns (laughter). This is what it says in your email.

ANNA:  Keep the snorts in, right.

NICK:  (laughter) Yeah indeed. Well it’s really great to have you on the line, we’re going to talk about Paradise Interns because it’s something that I found super exciting when I spotted it online a couple of weeks ago, it’s a really creative concept where people can learn digital marketing, they can scuba dive every day and live in paradise, that sounds really great and also it doesn’t cost much – in fact it’s free, I think.

So I think it’s really innovative, what you’re doing, and I’d love to know and share, really, what Paradise Interns is to our audience at Conservation Careers. But I’d like to start, Anna, if I can, just by talking about your career story and how you get to where you are at the moment as a digital nomad running Paradise Interns. Where did your career start, if we can just unroll it a little bit and work towards where you currently are?

ANNA:  Yeah, absolutely. So I’ve always been fascinated with things online. I think when I was 13 I made my first website, with I don’t remember, I remember my mum was terrified that my photo was online and she begged me to take it down. But then I kind of had that fascination with things online always grew. I always was teaching myself things. So I was lucky enough to be part of the second, I believe the second year that Facebook ever came out, I had to have a specific university address and was so excited that the school that I chose allowed me access to Facebook.

From there I ran my ski & snowboard club, actually, for four years so a little bit different to Paradise, a little bit colder. But that involved a lot of marketing, whether it came to design, video production, a lot of content creation, managing events, and that kind of led me along that path of travelling as well. When I graduated I kept that snowboarding lifestyle and met travellers, essentially, which started leading me around the world, from California where I’m originally from, to Utah, to New Zealand, back down to San Diego, more snowboarding, then over to Honduras where I actually first started learning how to scuba dive. And I was on a cruise ship with my family when I went to Honduras for the first time and they said, oh you can actually become a professional scuba diver and I was absolutely blown away by that. I was like, you mean I can live here and just dive every day? That’s like something somebody will pay me to do?

So I started doing that, saved all my money, this was what I have to do. Ever since the beginning I’ve always wanted to use my brain a little bit more. I love scuba diving, I love meeting people from all around the world, if you ask me what I love about scuba diving most, I’m sure most of your listeners are probably animal people? But I’m a people person through and through. So my favourite part about scuba diving is the people that I meet. And I’ve always loved it. And that kind of led me… I’m a sociology major so it always kind of goes together.

I started helping out on the marketing side just here and there as an instructor, kind of went back, almost quit everything to become a sommelier back in California and then said, no I’m gonna keep travelling and pursue this a little bit further and ended up in Indonesia five years ago. Through a series of tears and trials and tribulations I somehow ended up in Komodo National Park, where I did not want to be, actually, I wanted to be in Bali and I was there because somebody knew somebody and I had been dragged. But somehow kismet happened and I got offered a job the very first day that I arrived and I still live there, five years later.

NICK:  What was that first job, if I can ask, Anna? What were you offered on day 1?

ANNA:  As a scuba diving instructor.

NICK:  Right.

ANNA:  Yeah, exactly. So one reason I love the diving industry is that it really allows people to travel all over the world and earn a living as you do so. It’s not glamorous, you don’t actually… you work a lot, you don’t make that much money but you come in contact with incredible people, incredible places, and you essentially just get to live in the most gorgeous places in the world.

NICK:  Can I just dig into that then, very briefly. As someone who’s worked as a diving instructor at various places around the globe – on a day to day level, what’s it like doing that job? What are the duties and responsibilities and what do you enjoy about those sorts of roles and what are the tough bits?

ANNA:  Day to day, you wake up early, you’re at the shop by 7, you’re lifting tanks – in Indonesia not so much because there’s more people, more employees around but in Central America, in Americas for that part, you’re hauling your own tanks, you’re taking care of customers, you’re showing them places. People think, oh my gosh, you get to dive every time which is incredible but you start to know certain places, turtles become less exciting but you start going towards the little things, actually, as an instructor you’re like, ok I’m here for the nudis right now, let’s go in the sand, let’s find the craziest little macro things that we can find. And it gets really, really fun in a very different way.

It kind of actually progresses and has its own career path. So it’s incredible getting to meet, like I said, all the amazing people to be… I think my favourite part about being a dive instructor is knowing the ocean and being in that ocean every single day and knowing the tides and knowing what it’s doing, and you get to know dive sites and you get to know animals and where things are gonna be. It’s a pretty special feeling to not have to look at a tide chart and to know what time your tides are gonna change and how strong they’re gonna be and if there’s a super moon. You become very, very grounded if anything, becoming a dive instructor.

And I think that, right now in my life, I miss that the most in terms of being a dive instructor. So that would be my favourite part about being a dive instructor but as far as… you meet wonderful people, it’s fun, dive industries attract amazing people and there’s always great banter around the table when you’re looking at animals after the day, or you’re just hanging out by the beach or wherever your dive centre is. There’s always something new, it’s a very, very cool industry so my heart kind of belongs to it at this point, and that’s where I was like, ok I want to do something more at this point but I want to stay around this type of people. And I actually think it’s the same kind of people as skiing and snowboarding too, so (laughter)…

NICK:  Yeah they’re at opposite ends of the temperature spectrum but they’re both adventurous, they both travel, they both attract a certain type of person?

ANNA:  Exactly. So it’s all the same vibes, if you will. So that’s what the dive industry is. I don’t know if you want me to go a little bit further into the dive industry or…

NICK:  Well it would be interesting just to hear… it sounds lovely, it sounds blissful, there’s a lot of people, myself included, that love travel and love getting close to nature and experiencing nature, one-to-one, and the feeling of diving is like being in a totally other world. It’s weightless, you’re seeing creatures on a day-to-day basis you wouldn’t normally see. I’m interested, what are the downsides of diving? Are there downsides of being a dive instructor? Is it a perfect career that if you’re interested in marine biology you should go off and explore, or are there things that people should maybe bear in mind, before just jumping in feet first and looking into the industry?

ANNA:  There are quite a few issues, I guess, facing pursuing a career in diving. Right now I believe that the average dive instructor ends up doing it for about three years. And there’s a lot of things that actually contribute to that. Extremely low pay. It’s physically hard work going underwater and physically putting your body on the line. You get very, very tired. I mean it’s wonderful but at the same time, it’s physically tiring and the pay that you get is really low.

On top of that you’re working really long hours. It’s essentially 7am, if you’re lucky, that’s a late start time, until about 8pm a lot of nights. Six days a week is a pretty normal rate, I know some companies out here do about 12 days on, 2 days off. And when you’re diving every single day, sometimes 3-4 times a day, that can get quite tiring. Other issues that face the dive industry is it’s really hard to get a job. There’s a huge saturation of divemasters and instructors, people are selling this dream of becoming a divemaster, becoming an instructor but unless you’re coming in with languages – languages are a huge, huge plus, especially as a native English speaker without any other languages – you’re going to struggle, you’re going to struggle to find those jobs.

Which is actually one reason that I think that my program helps people who do want to pursue – maybe not a lifetime career in scuba diving – but a few years, 2-5 years of saying, ok I want to take some time out of my life, out of this rat race, and I want to dedicate some time to connecting with nature, to allow myself some time to actually enjoy this type of career. So while there are some definite pluses, there’s a lot of pluses, there’s also a lot of reasons that people don’t stay that long.

NICK:  Right, ok yeah. And I’m chomping at the bit to talk about your program as well. But one question that leads me to think about while listening, if people work for say three years, what are the sorts of jobs that they typically go to after being a dive operator? Is there a logical progression or is that often a bit of a full stop and people do a pivot and do something else? Is there a logical progression that people tend to move towards?

ANNA:  I actually find that it’s probably a pivot, it’s a stop and pivot, it’s ok, time to go back to the old world, go back, do that. If you don’t just stop and pivot then you generally tend to take the route of becoming a dive manager and that’s a lot of times that you’ll see. Sometimes of course in conservation you can get jobs with aquariums or more research that don’t necessarily revolve around diving but do require you to have a diving background.

But yeah, I think that’s kind of the most… I think a lot of people actually return to their old lives after a while, where it’s quite an amazing thing to do but I just don’t think it offers… it’s not something you can do long term physically and it doesn’t offer the financial security to be able to really pursue it long term unless you’re really, really ready to say goodbye to the grind and the prescribed 9-5.

And a lot of people say yes, I’m ready to take that, I’m ready to do that but that’s not just doing that for yourself, that’s saying goodbye to your family and friends and it’s really… it’s a big jump, it’s a scary jump and I think a lot of people who are even making that jump are constantly… when we talk about scuba diving instructing as a career, when you talk about that a lot of people forget that psychological background of yes, I live out here and I don’t have that financial security that my family thinks is so important and I’m not around my friends and family as much as I’d like to be. So I think that actually is probably one of the main reasons that people stop and pivot.

NICK:  Right, yeah. And yet you’ve pivoted, you’re not a dive instructor any more but you’re still involved in the diving industry and you’re based in Komodo National Park so you’re still exploring the globe, enjoying travel and the freedom of living outside of where you grew up. Maybe we can just dive in therefore to Paradise Interns and your current role. For those who don’t know what Paradise Interns is, how would you describe it to them, what is the program?

ANNA:  Absolutely. So Paradise Interns is a program I wish existed when I was first looking at how to travel and to find skills that would allow me to be overseas and work at the laptop life, this digital nomad life. Not even digital nomad, just the idea of, I want to be able to support myself while travelling overseas.

That’s really what Paradise Interns is geared towards. As a dive instructor you can travel the world, as a digital marketer that’s a really important skill that kind of lends itself to any industry in any future job that you might ever have. It’s always a good piece of knowledge that’s going to be accepted, especially as we move into this digital age, especially with social media becoming so prominent, and people almost living second lives online.

So Paradise Interns is, just as an overview, a 6-month program; the first month is a digital marketing boot camp where everyone is in Bali, you get a nice big learning space where everyone shares the same villa and we go over a lot of aspects of digital marketing. We talk about branding, I’m a big believer in branding and people confuse that sometimes with, I have a logo. No, that’s not what I’m talking about. Branding being the foundations of who your company or who, whatever business whether you’re a blogger, or whether you’re wanting to start the Wildlife Workers Network, or if you want to start your actual own company, all these different things; no matter what you are, you need foundations, what’s your mission, what are your values, how do you speak, what are buzzwords that you revolve around, who is your brand?

So at Paradise Interns we start with branding, we move into social media, heavy focus on Facebook and Instagram with advanced growth strategies, how do we bring automation into these things without being spammy, how do we take advantage of all these digital tools that we have? We do a lot of content creation, we do email marketing, we do a lot of writing effective copy that converts and we move into a little bit of SEO, that’s gonna be a smaller aspect but we really have a lot of fun with content creation. So if you’re a creative individual, this is really the perfect opportunity to take some time off and say ok, I want to push myself and see, can I develop my videography skills?

Can I develop my photography skills? And kind of move in that position. So the first month takes place in Bali and then after the first month, interns are placed with a specific dive shop, I’m also actually working with not-for-profits now as well as a few accommodations, and they’re placed at a specific company where they spend the next five months taking what we learnt in the first month and applying it towards an actual portfolio and actually being handed the reins of a company’s image, of its social image and being allowed to have some fun with it, actually.

So the best part about that is during that time with Paradise Interns, they’ve already been given the tools that they need and over the five months, we do a pretty strong mentorship on my part and we have deadlines, every week this is due. Then I’m gonna hop on the phone with the intern and we’re gonna go through all of it. I approve every piece of work and I really want it to be a pretty strong learning experience for each intern. And at the end, a lot of interns ask me will I get a certificate?

Is that something that I can…. What kind of certification am I gonna get? Ok well, a certificate in social media or digital marketing doesn’t really mean much at this point in time, let’s be very clear. Even better, what you’re gonna have is you’re gonna have a portfolio and not just a portfolio of content, but we look at numbers. We look at analytics. We’re gonna say I increased the growth of so-and-so’s Instagram by this % from blank to blank. And that’s gonna be a real number that you can actually put on your CV and show that yes, you were in charge of it, show that you know what it takes to actually be a digital marketing manager, and take it in that direction.

NICK:  That sounds so interesting. Is there a… just thinking about those jobs, is there a growth in the market of digital marketing managers nowadays, and social media managers too? Is it an industry that people are coming out of your internships can be going into beyond just diving, as you said earlier, is there more opportunities for people like this now?

ANNA:  Yeah. A lot of people hate on social media and they say, oh yeah it’s like this vapid place for people to take pictures of their food and they talk about how wonderful their lives are but I’m a really big… I’m an optimist to a fault. I think that social media can actually be used as a catalyst for change. Whether it be social progress, conservation, I am working with a few pro bono projects that I’m just super excited to be a part of because I think that they show… it’s an opportunity to show that we can take social media and digital marketing and use it for good.

So in kind of what you’re saying at Paradise Interns is yes, you can take these skills and apply it to any job that you look for, especially a lot of your listeners are probably trying to get into the conservation, and we need more people in conservation to think of it as a business.

Too many people are getting, I think, stuck in ideals and ideals matter 100%, I am the first person to think that, but we need to take it and we need to treat it a little bit more like a business and say, listen, we need to convince people to get on our side, we need to market to people that this is important, we need to show them, we need to raise awareness, we need to convert, we need to generate leads that we can mobilise in the future. I don’t mean to get political in any way but I think Bernie Sanders in the United States was actually one of the first times somebody… Obama as well, and I’m going into American politics, but they utilised social media for social change. I want to help more people understand that that’s available in any facet. No matter what you think, you have the ability to generate huge amounts of awareness and really drive change via this.

NICK:  Yeah that’s so interesting. In the first podcast we spoke to Patricia Zurita from BirdLife International and one of her messages to the audience was that conservationists are very good at talking to ourselves, and we need to be much better at reaching out to new audiences and converting them and working with them and alongside them and I think that’s really what you’re doing as well in terms of your social media outreach, it’s helping to convert people who don’t already know about the marine environment and about how to enjoy sustainable travel and ethical diving and things like that, so it’s really fascinating to hear the story and how you’re kind of plugging that into a business, not just the charity sector but you’re creating something which actually could scale, and the impact of that could scale over time. The more successful you are, the more interns you can train and support, and the more operators out there that are getting their message out there more widely. I totally applaud that.

ANNA:  Thank you. To answer your question about are there jobs? One of my favourite parts about my Paradise Interns program is that it’s a huge amount of education for the dive centres and the companies I work with. Because for the most part, a lot of the centres, a lot of the companies I work with are all small businesses and they don’t really exactly see how can social be so necessary, why should I invest in social. Isn’t it just somebody posting? Isn’t it just somebody… can’t I just hire an instructor and ask them to do it in their spare time? And the answer is no.

But I also understand when you don’t have the knowledge of what goes behind it, that’s a completely legitimate understanding of the entire situation so one thing that I’m finding is that the more interns I have, the more companies… once they actually start seeing how much time my interns spend on these certain things, or start seeing all the different things that go into this digital marketing campaign, they actually start seeing the value in it. So not only is it helping, the interns gain these skills and the dive centres actually saying, oh ok this is working, wow this is cool! And I’m actually finding that more and more roles are opening up for social media managers in the industry. To point to one place that I have quite a few interns is over in the Gilis and it seems that at first nobody believed that social was working until it started working for one company.

NICK:  And how do the dive operators feel about handing the keys over to their online presence to an intern? You talked about giving them the reins, that sounds exciting but it also sounds like it’s a bit of trust there from the dive operator too. How have people found that journey?

ANNA:  Well they hand the trust to me so every single post that goes out actually gets approved by me, by me or my team so if they have an issue I always get a phone call or a text, like um I don’t really think that’s on brand.

Ok, we move forward, we delete that, we move forward. Sometimes it’s an easy process, sometimes brands have a pretty clear voice that they’ve been able to explain. Sometimes it’s a 3-4 month process where I’m on the phone with the manager once a week saying, I like this, I didn’t like this, I like this, I didn’t like this. It just kind of depends, but I think most of my shops, I think all my shops would say I’m pretty open to working with them as long as they reach out and explain, yeah this is what I like. So they’re pretty happy to have somebody take care of it and start seeing results.

NICK:  That’s cool. And who is your typical Paradise Intern, who are you looking to attract and how much does it cost? If someone’s interested, they listen to the podcast, who are you looking to bring on board and what are the costs involved?

ANNA:  Yeah, absolutely. So my typical Paradise Intern that I’m looking for is between 20-30, they can be doing a gap year, they can be just finished with university, I find that a lot of interns that I get have just finished university and are not really sure what they want to do but they want to take some… they want to explore a little bit, find a way to get abroad. I’m mostly, I need English fluency, I’ll be very clear. We do all this in English so written fluency is key, otherwise I have to rewrite everything piece by piece.

The other aspect that I’m looking for is work ethic. It’s not a free ride, you get incredible benefits out of it but I am looking for people who are looking to find a portfolio and looking for professional development and want to push themselves and actually learn. And then the other thing I’m looking for is a specific point of view. I’m looking for personality.

Somebody can be writing generic content and they can be doing everything right but I just want some point of view and I work with so many different dive centres with different personalities that there’s always a place for everybody, every single type of person, from people who are a bit quieter and are more interested in remote conservation to people who are out there for the social scene and like to party but at the same time, like I said, it’s still serious. But we’ve got something for everybody, which is really kind of one of the fun things. But yeah, I’m looking for strong points of view, which is one of the most important things.

NICK:  Great. And in terms of the costs and the benefits, what can you say to potential Paradise Interns there?

ANNA:  Yeah, absolutely. So let me go through benefits first. The benefits are that you receive a free month of marketing training, ok, I actually take all the courses that are out there, I’ve taken thousands of dollars’ worth of courses and I make sure that I’m integrating it into my program so that interns can feel confident that they’re getting the most… all the information they can that’s out there. You get unlimited scuba diving, which in itself is pretty awesome for five months.

NICK:  Wow.

ANNA:  With Paradise Interns you either get your Open Water through Rescue, all certification fees are paid for in that one, or you get your Divemaster, you can get the Divemaster course itself, fees and materials are not paid for by us, by Paradise Interns, that’s up to the interns themselves, or you can get the free IDC. Now the IDC does get a bit more expensive, again because of materials and fees to PADI but the actual shop cost of about $1,200-$1,400 is paid for by the shop. So all interns get about $1,000+ worth of diving courses as well as unlimited scuba diving. As far as costs go, we pay for all the diving, all the marketing training, we do not pay for living expenses, that’s essentially what the bulk of your costs would be. So all interns need to pay for their own accommodation, they need to pay for their own food, SIM card… not SIM card but phone bills, for example… all of those things.

We charge two fees in Paradise Interns – one is the onboarding fee, it’s $500, that’s not really a fee it’s just so that I can arrange everybody’s accommodation in this villa for the first month, it also comes with motorbike rental, airport pickup, SIM card, just the little things that you don’t want to walk into a new country and be like, oh my gosh, I need to find a place to live. So that onboarding fee I generally actually lose money on that but (laughter) that’s a $500 fee that includes your first month of rent. And then the other cost that is associated is an $800 deposit. I wish I didn’t have to charge this, I’m embarrassed to tell you this, Nick.

NICK:  We won’t tell anyone, don’t worry.

ANNA:  (laughter) I don’t want to charge it but it’s $800 – and this is essentially held until the intern’s last day. And that’s because the dive centres, the way that this entire thing works is the dive centres pay me. So if for any reason an intern decides to leave and not finish their course, I need to reimburse that dive centre. So that $800 is, if you leave for any reason, we do keep the $800 but in a perfect world nobody leaves and on the last day of the internship I give that $800 back.

NICK:  Just kind of moving more towards advice really, and really looking towards what you’ve done in your career so far. Let’s talk about being a digital nomad, you know, this is how you describe yourself. I think it’s something that, it’s the term that’s used more and more online nowadays and people start to connect to it but what do you see a digital nomad as, and how can people become one, what are the opportunities out there for people to travel and to earn an income as they do so?

ANNA:  It’s a pretty wonderful lifestyle in that you’re not bound to the 9-5, you don’t have to go in, you don’t need to actually show up at a specified time. But I think a common misconception that a lot of people who want this lifestyle don’t maybe understand is that, it’s not an excuse not to show up. Just because you’re working from your laptop doesn’t mean you don’t have to put in the hours, that you don’t have to put in the hustle and that’s really what you’re seen… I think that’s the big misconception in these big entrepreneur influencers about, oh yeah, like be a blogger… you see a lot of travel bloggers, that’s a pretty popular thing right now, who are travelling around the world and writing blogs and taking photos and posting gorgeous pictures and that’s amazing.

That’s absolutely amazing and I 100% encourage every single person who wants to take that path to explore it. But I want people to understand that when you do explore it, it’s still a job. In fact, it sometimes takes a lot more hours than that typical 9-5. There’s a little bit more hustle behind it. But it’s incredibly rewarding when you can make it work. I guess that’s my take-away. I probably work more hours than most people but at the same time it’s on my rules, it’s on my time, it’s how I want to do it and what I want to be doing and I’m surrounding myself with people that inspire me daily. I think that’s why that digital nomad idea sort of appeals to a lot of people.

NICK:  Yeah. And what advice would you give budding digital nomads, people who are looking to follow in yours and other people’s footsteps?

ANNA:  I guess my main piece of advice would be that all the information is out there. People have asked me, where did you learn, how did you find out this? I Googled it. What do you mean, you Googled it? I mean, I went on Google and I spent like two hours figuring out what the answer was and then I took it a step further and I was hungry.

The information in this digital age out there is incredible. I mean you can learn anything you want on the internet and people… the hungrier you are the more you’ll learn and if you really want to pursue this lifestyle, find the type of path that’s gonna… the job that you want, whether it be digital marketing, whether it be writing copy; there’s so many elements of digital marketing, I guess I would start listing those off but find what appeals to you most and then really pursue it, and devour the information that’s out there.

NICK:  And there are so many people out there, as you reference, that kind of run their own blogs and websites and have a really good social media presence themselves and I would encourage people to take that next step, learn it and then implement it. If it means doing it on your own, on your own website or blog in the first instance then great, that’s a great way to showcase and you can start connecting and doing it for other people, too. People are often told, you know, the best way to get a conservation job is through volunteering, you know get a really good education but then you get really good experience too and the way to get experience is to go and be an intern or to be a volunteer, and obviously that’s the kind of people you’re helping right now by providing the experiences that you are.

If people are looking for a volunteer or an internship opportunity around the globe, it might not be in marine, it might not be doing what you’re doing but they want to go off and get a project, there’s a whole range of things out there, some can be quite expensive, some can be free, some can be even paid, there’s a few paid experiences out there too – what advice would you give people who are looking to find the right project for them and to ensure that it’s going to deliver something of benefit to conservation and also to their own skills? Have you got any thoughts around that?

ANNA:  Yeah, absolutely. I would say the first thing is to ask people who’ve done it. Don’t be afraid to reach out, like I said the internet has taken communication to another level. I get a lot of people who say, oh you mean I can actually speak to your interns who’ve done it? 100%. I would expect every intern to actually ask that question. Another thing would be to make sure it’s the right… it’s something you want to do.

Don’t sign up for an internship and then be like, actually I was trying a lot of them and this is the only one that came through. You’re not gonna get the most out of it, your company or the place that you’re working with is not gonna get much out of it, it’s not working for anybody so really vet it and have a sit down with yourself and say, ok is this something that I want to do? As far as putting yourself out there in terms of how to actually get those positions, have a point of view. Like I said before, be passionate about something. I think a lot of people who are employing and interviewing people… I can let a lot of things go when I see passion and when I see excitement. Those are the things that get me really excited for a candidate.

NICK:  Yeah and we can hear a lot of passion and excitement from you too. I mean, in just one year what you’ve achieved so far with Paradise Interns, I think it’s remarkable so well done so far on establishing something which has got such a strong brand, it’s obviously going to start changing the industry and I hope it does kind of spread out to the other countries you’re looking to target. It’s really nice hearing your career story, good luck with Paradise Interns and thank you so much for finding the time to chat today. It’s been really nice to kind of get to know you a little bit and we’ll be hopefully keeping in touch and seeing where you go with the concept but thanks for speaking on the podcast.

ANNA:  No problem, thank you so much for having me Nick, I really appreciate it.

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