Podcast: Cheli Cresswell Sinclair | Conservation Optimism
When you think about wildlife and conservation efforts, do you feel overwhelmed by the challenges we face? Saddened by the state of the planet and the rate of biodiversity losses? Upset by the volumes of plastic in our oceans, that slaughter of migratory birds over Malta? Or the clearing of our rainforest for palm oil?
Or, do you feel hopeful? Do you feel we can still turn it all around, that conservationists know what needs to be done and that nature can bounce back quickly?
In these podcasts and on our website, we ask some of the most senior conservationists on the planet, what do we need to do more of to tackle biodiversity collapses? The vast majority of them see the challenge as one of communicating our messages more effectively. To attract new support, raise our profile, turn interest into action. But how do we do this?
Enter Conservation Optimism.
Conservation Optimism is a global community dedicated to sharing hopeful stories about conservation to inspire, educate, entertain and empower. Started at a conference just two years ago, it has grown rapidly and has attracted support from organisations and individuals the world over. And joining us for this Conservation Optimism podcast is their Director, Cheli Cresswell Sinclair.
You can listen and subscribe to the Conservation Careers Podcast on iTunes, Spotify or Stitcher using the following links, or search for ‘conservation careers’ and you’ll find us!
Discuss Conservation Optimism Podcast
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CHELI: Hi, I’m Cheli Cresswell Sinclair, I’m the Director of Conservation Optimism and I’m also the Engagement Strategist at Synchronicity Earth.
NICK: Right, so you wear two hats. And I guess we’d like to hear about both. Maybe we can start with Conservation Optimism because it’s something that we at Conservation Careers have heard a lot about over the last few years, and it seems to be spreading this idea of sharing positive messages and sharing hope and inspiration. Can you tell us a little bit about Conservation Optimism, what is it and where did the idea come from?
CHELI: I came to Conservation Optimism when it was actually being first coalesced as a one-off conference that was scheduled for Earth Day of 2017 so I started with what’s now the movement in the fall of 2016 in the lead up to that summit. So this had been kind of an idea that EJ Milner-Gulland, who’s the Professor of Biodiversity at University of Oxford’s Department of Zoology, had come up with. As it evolved from a lot of other conversations that were happening at the same time with Earth Optimism, Nancy Knowlton and Ocean Optimism and kind of an increasing awareness that we needed to change the narrative around conservation and environmental stories because the doom and gloom scenarios and framing that dominate this area are really disempowering and actually discouraging people from taking part in conservation, both within the sector and within the general public.
NICK: Well, I’ve got a few facts in front of me actually. Half of all native forests are gone. 76% of fisheries are exploited or over-fished. 40% of migratory birds are declining. These are the sorts of things that we hear in the news all the time; these are the sorts of messages that capture journalists’ and people’s attention. But you feel that wasn’t a positive thing for the world, it wasn’t encouraging change?
CHELI: Well the issue is that we do live in a very challenging time for the environment and for conservation, but only focusing on the negative and focusing on, you know, in 15 years there might not be any elephants, the coral reefs are all being bleached, all of these things that are true, or could be true, don’t highlight the smaller successes that are happening and don’t give people a reason to actually continue to strive to conserve what is left. And for people outside of conservation, it kind of makes people want to tune out and just not really engage with conservation whatsoever because if it’s futile, then what’s the point? And for people within the sector, it leads to a lot of burn-out, it leads to a lot of mental health crises. And so basically there was this growing awareness that we needed to have some kind of discussion to change this discourse and to not post kind of happy messages or slap slap – I don’t want to sound discouraging but it’s not upworthy for conservation. This is not just positive stories, but talk about real and replicable successes, talk about empowering and inspiring ideas, talk about different ways of communicating conservation to diverse audiences in a way that would both invigorate the conservation community but then also get people who are outside of the conservation community to start identifying as conservationists, to start realising that their actions have consequences and that they have real power, and trying to build up this much more inclusive, empowering, inspirational idea. And so that was where the first Conservation Optimism summit was born and that was held over three days, two of them at Dulwich College in London and one of the ZSL London Zoo. So I came on board with that team to help with the digital comms and we realised the community that we were building was much bigger than the community that actually came and gathered for those three days in London. And during the conference itself we had more people that were watching our plenaries by far than were actually in the room with us. Within a few days, we had so many people say, right what’s next? You know, how do we take this forward? So we realised we didn’t have a one-off conference on our hands, what we had was a movement that was just being born. Since then – that was in April of 2017 and now it’s April of 2019 – the last two years, building up that movement, looking for ways to provide different kinds of resources, different kinds of communities, we’re going to be having another summit this September but we’re also kind of exploring a bunch of different options which I would be thrilled to tell you about in terms of ways that we can support the sector in a really ownerless but collaborative way, to try to provide that neutral meeting ground to share these empowering possibilities.
NICK: And it’s amazing how quickly it’s taken off then, in two years. We talk to a lot of conservationists and one of the questions we ask people are, you know, are you optimistic, are you hopeful for the future? You know, because actually when you look at the big picture, it is very easy to get disillusioned and scared and think actually, maybe it’s all lost, you know, maybe, you know, we’ve tipped over the edge and there are all sorts of issues but actually overwhelmingly conservationists are a very, very positive bunch. Otherwise you wouldn’t be doing it, right? We’re in it because we believe in the power of change and movement. We’ve seen that with plastic pollution recently with David Attenborough. I’m lucky enough to be looking at right now red kites that are flying across the sky in front of me, and that’s because conservation worked, we’ve been releasing them.
CHELI: And we wouldn’t be doing our jobs if we didn’t believe that conservation had the potential to work, you know. Not only is it working but if you’re spending all of your time and effort working for something that you believe is a lost cause, that’s not a very rational thing to do. So… but the challenge is that it is a very sobering and oftentimes depressing and challenging field to work in and so finding that balance, because we don’t ever want to mitigate the real tragedies and the real severity of the issues, however one of the things that we always talk about is connecting people with action and connecting people with other people. So even in telling a really sad story about human wildlife conflict or poaching or degradation or loss or whatever kind of story that you need to tell, not stopping at ‘this is the problem, now go and feel sad all day’ but say ‘and here’s who’s working on that and here’s how you can get involved and here’s a very real and practical step that can be taken’ or ‘here’s an example of someone who has solved a similar challenge in a different situation’ so that you’re leaving the story on some kind of inspirational empowering note that isn’t trying to make people feel better or pat themselves on the back, but is trying to inspire people to then take that forward and actually not stop fighting.
NICK: Can you give any examples of, you know, really good let’s call them communications or messages that really did link to hope or something, you know, that inspired change amongst people?
CHELI: Yeah, there’s so many different diverse stories that have come through the channels and now we’re getting, you know, 20-30 different posts on average per day across our channels, so what we really focus on is amplifying diverse voices and diverse messages and not generating a whole lot of unique original content ourselves but trying to facilitate the community to tell their stories as much as possible. So we get a real range of stories of things where a success has been achieved in setting aside some new protected area, there’s really creative stories, like I don’t know if you saw the one about Romeo, the world’s loneliest frog, where they were searching to find a mate for this frog that was the last known of his species and so they’d given him kind of a personality and talked about the whole search for this frog’s hopeful mate. And then they did, they eventually found five more and one of them is a potential Juliette for his Romeo and so the potential for hopefully being able to further that species by captive breeding…
NICK: And what’s nice about that is that it’s actually, it’s not just like a one-off piece of news, it’s kind of building a story that engages people, and as you’re talking about Romeo we’re both smiling. You know, so it’s a nice story and I want to hear more.
CHELI: Well one of the ones that really got everyone here at Synchronicity Earth excited just a couple of weeks ago was a White-Bellied Heron that is one of the world’s rarest birds was captured in a camera trap in an area where we were hoping that we would find white-bellied herons but was possibly extinct in that area and it was found in a camera trap that had actually been set up for tigers. And so it was a really great story about how this species has managed to hang on, the value of the conservation work that’s going on in the area, the value of what they call camera trap bycatch, so you know, being able to put a lot of money and effort and time into projects that actually can yield more than what you even hope for. And so I mean there’s all kinds of inspiring stories because that story wasn’t, you know, a one-off, that was years in the making of lots of different conservationists and communities and everything coming together to work in this area on a variety of species, and then you have this one camera trap that happens to capture a really amazing image because it’s like very clear, very large, he’s actively posing right there in front of the camera trap. It’s the sort of thing that then gives everyone hope and goes, oh my gosh yes, what we’re doing matters, what we’re doing makes a difference and we can keep hoping for more successes to build on this one.
NICK: And now we know this we can do more. Two years have gone by, you’re now planning another summit I can see, so it’s September, 2nd-4th in Oxford, UK. What’s planned for that one? What can people get involved with?
CHELI: We’re actually still accepting submissions for different kinds of sessions up through April 30th. We’ve got four different tracks, four different themes and the themes are Conservation Works, Lessons Learned and Models for Success; Creative Conservation, Engaging Through Storytelling and the Arts; Optimism and Wellbeing, Living and Working in Conservation and 2020 and Beyond, a Tipping Point for Nature and People. So we had slightly different themes in the previous summit and we’d like to be able to modify this more as we go forward but what we’re really interested in capturing is stories from the field and from around the world that can help inspire and engage and empower people. We’re looking at those ways in which we tell the stories, because this is something that the conservation sector historically hasn’t been as strong on, is ways of engaging the public in the scientific and practical work that’s being done and telling those stories in a way that’s really accessible and human-driven and creative. Another one is obviously the mental health, wellbeing, looking at both the benefits of conservation for human health and wellbeing, which are many because obviously they’re very intrinsically linked. When you have healthy ecosystems and you have environments that are flourishing, that’s better for people all around but it’s also something that is very strongly linked with mental health. So we’re looking at not only the challenges to people because of the very real, scary, depressing, doom and gloom side of conservation but then also looking at what are the benefits and what are the human reasons. Even if you want to take out everything about ecosystems and species and this is something that comes up a lot, I think, for people that work in conservation sector, is people saying, you know, why would you waste all of your time on animals or plants when there’s people that are suffering around the world? And then so talking about what are the human benefits of conservation. And then the one that I’m probably the most personally excited about is 2020 and Beyond, Creating a Tipping Point for Nature and People. 2020 is really set up to be a year of immense possibility for conservation, there’s a lot of different important meetings, including the Congress of Parties in Beijing in I think November, also the World Congress and everything. If we want to have a Paris-style moment for biodiversity, the way that Paris was for climate change, I think 2020 is going to be a really important year for trying to get the conservation sector to speak with one voice and to rally around some unifying messaging that can cut across the public sector, the business sector, governments, conservationists, academics and get everyone really pushing forward together.
NICK: In the lead-up to the 2020 targets and the kind of refocus and the messaging that you were talking about and changing messaging within conservation, are you looking to convene various conservation organisations together to try and get that movement working as a unit?
CHELI: Yes we are, so one of the things that we’re working on and have been working on now for about a year but will be increasingly important in our focus, is what we’re calling Conservation Now, the conservation network of optimists worldwide, which is our ownerless meeting space and alliance for the other conservation organisations, projects, all of the different conservation groups that are working in this similar spirit and ethos. Because Conservation Optimism isn’t something that we came up with, this is something that we recognised was out there and are trying to facilitate as much as possible. So we’ve been trying to gather together as many different groups that are all working in the same space to try to help share resources, share messaging and framing and get people working together and collaborating.
NICK: Where do you hope Conservation Optimism will be, let’s say – and maybe you don’t know the answer to this, I don’t know but let’s say 10 years from now, 20, 30? 11 years? What do you hope for the future of it, what do you think that the impact might have been or the changes you might be making?
CHELI: What I would really like to see is along with this Conservation Now, one thing that we’re hoping to start this summer in the lead-up to the second summit, is starting to spread regional hubs around the world. We’re looking at starting one that will be based out of Bangalore in India this summer, and that will basically be the same structure idea that we have that’s been based out of Oxford that kind of had to grow from here because of where the first summit was held but then what we’re hoping to facilitate is these regional hubs that will be gathering organisations and groups and projects from their own physical region and helping to strengthen and support those groups there in that region, and then report back out in a more effective way to every other region. So that our ideal is to have regional hubs, 20 of them or more, around the world that are each able to have much closer relationships and communication with the multiple smaller partners that are in those areas and then feeding that information back kind of into a centralised node and then dispersing it back down all of the other hubs, kind of like multiple legs of an octopus feeding back and then having that information and all of those stories and all of those resources feed back down to the tip of every other octopus leg around the world. So that will be part of my vision for the next 5-10 years, is that we would have more support, more summits, more training opportunities for groups every size and also across different kind of groups. Currently in Conservation Now we have not only NGOs or small projects or large NGOs or… we’ve got some businesses that work specifically with these different kinds of communications challenges, there’s a variety of different people that are all embracing this spirit and this ethos of conservation optimism, of empowered conservation and of trying to get everyone, whether they’re a barista, a lawyer, a mum, you know, financial consultant, whatever, to identify themselves as conservationists and take an active role in protecting our planet.
NICK: And that’s one of the big challenges that the conservation movement is facing, that you guys are tackling, which is how do we bring more people into the movement and make more people feel and be empowered to be a conservationist, to be able to make change, no matter what they are. Conservation isn’t just this term, just for a few people who are, I don’t know, specialist and highly trained and working as professionals, it’s for anyone if you want to kind of tackle and make change, you know, in your own lives so I salute you in what you’re doing. It’s a really important movement and it’ll be really interesting to see, you know, where it’s gonna go as well.
CHELI: We’ve partnered with Key Conservation app, which will be coming out to people’s phones this summer, which is something I would really encourage everyone that’s interested in this to listen out for or keep your eyes peeled for. It’s something that Conservation Optimism has supported as one of our key partners now and it allows you to do three different things – it allows you to follow conservation organisations that are small and on-the-ground and doing all of this work in real time and either give them micro donations if they have financial needs; to search for different groups that need volunteers using their geolocation feature, you can go out and actually volunteer either near where you live or if you’re on holiday, you can see what’s nearby and go and volunteer with them; or probably the most exciting one in my opinion is the skills sharing, which allows you that if you’ve got… let’s say that you’re multilingual and there’s an organisations that needs help doing translation, or you are a graphic artist and there’s a small group that doesn’t have a logo yet and it needs help with their branding so that they can better tell their story, whatever your skills, if you don’t have the money to donate and you don’t have the time to physically go and volunteer, you can make a tangible difference for conservation using the things that you’re the best at.
NICK: Gosh, that sounds amazing, I love it. Well when it’s out let’s chat again and we’ll hopefully share that and get behind it ourselves, it sounds fantastic. So let’s hear a little bit more about you then if we can. You have been working in conservation for a while, you’re wearing two hats with Synchronicity Earth and Conservation Optimism, could you just provide like just a brief career history, what have you done to date to get you to where you are right now?
CHELI: I probably have a strange career path in many ways. When I first graduated from undergrad, I thought I wanted to work in the film industry and did, in fact, work in the film industry in Los Angeles, I worked for Disney in the visual effects department. And after a while, I was really unfulfilled, I felt like I was working on other people’s creative visions, I felt like I wasn’t really challenging myself and I wasn’t contributing to the rest of the world in a way that I wanted to. It was really fun and I don’t mean to disparage the film industry at all, but for me, I felt that something was missing. Around that same time I got involved with the Climate Project, which was Al Gore’s initiative that was built on the back of Inconvenient Truth where he brought together a lot of different educators, some celebrities, different kinds of leaders from different communities, and trained them how to give that same slideshow that he was giving in the documentary. And so I was in the first cohort of that and got really involved, got really excited and realised that I wanted to go ahead and get my masters degree in sustainability. And so I decided to make a complete career change and go and pursue my masters degree in sustainability.
NICK: Back to school for a bit.
CHELI: Yup. And so during the course of that I ended up doing part of my studies at University of Oxford and fell in love with it, and realised I wanted to do a PhD but wasn’t sure what to do. And didn’t want to jump into it without having something I was really passionate about. And so I worked for the National Wildlife Federation in DC in the US as part of their campus ecology programme. So I worked there for a while and then was recruited back to the US university where I had done my masters degree to be an adjunct professor, and so taught some classes in sustainability and helped develop some online classes both at the graduate and undergraduate level. And then became inspired while I was doing that with what I wanted to do my PhD on actually because I had a semester where none of my classes that I was teaching were in person, they were all online. So I went to Thailand, as one does.
NICK: Yeah, why not!
CHELI: So I went to Thailand and I was working and volunteering and travelling and looking at different environmental and sustainability wildlife mostly related issues, but something I noticed while I was out in even really rural parts of Thailand was that when there were these human elephant conflict situations that were occurring, either elephants coming in and crop raiding or elephants traveling homes, elephants that had been used in logging or the tourist trade but then as there are increasing crack-downs don’t actually have employment any more, so unemployed elephants are a problem because people turn them loose and they don’t have their natural forests to retreat to because it’s becoming an increasingly fragmented landscape. What I noticed was that even in the small villages that people were pulling out their cell phones and capturing images and videos of the incidents, but that those records weren’t necessarily going anywhere. People might be sharing them with friends and family or they might just be leaving them on their phone, they might be posting them to social media but in terms of that entering any kind of centralised database that researchers, conservationists and planners could use, that just was not happening. And so I got the idea for what I wanted to do with my PhD based on that and the idea of citizen science, and the idea of these smartphones that we’re all carrying around, and increasingly even in the developing world people are carrying around what would have been close to £40,000 worth of kit in the 1980s because if you include the altimeter and the video camera and the translation features and the… all the different things that your smartphone can do. So I got really interested in citizen science and how that’s developed over the last 120 years and how we are currently taking advantage of technology and how we’re not, and how we could be. So I started my PhD at University of Oxford and that has led me to my current positions through various channels, which I can elaborate on if you’re interested.
NICK: So a really diverse, yeah as you say, sort of meandering career but I don’t say that in a detrimental way, I think most people’s career paths are meandering, certainly mine is too and most people that I speak to so, you know, each step kind of builds upon the last. What did you learn, just briefly, in your PhD, like what were the headlines? What would you kind of tell people that you kind of walked away with?
CHELI: So I’m not quite finished with it yet. I’m currently on maternity leave from my PhD and I’ll be going on maternity leave from my job but the key take-away that I have learned over the last few years with my PhD is that technology has fundamentally changed the way in which the different actors in citizen science relate to one another. There has been citizen science, which is the use of non-traditional academics in the aggregation and analysis of scientific data, for conservation since 1900, if not before but since the first autobahn Christmas bird count there have been citizen science conservation projects. A lot of these have used citizens specifically as censors or data aggregators and that has fed back to centralised hubs where, you know, usually men in white coats doing Science, with a capital S, use this data and it’s been a very unidirectional relationship. But what’s interesting is as you look over the last 120 years and you see different kinds of technologies become available and then widely adopted and, you know, and different things from computing to now with smart phones you see different changes in that relationship and at first it’s step changes of scale, so you can do things bigger and faster, but the relationships don’t change but then what you see in the last particularly 10-15 years and really within the last five is that with the kinds of smartphone technology that we have, you see the relationship fundamentally starting to shift. Obviously there’s pioneers that take this on at first and the rest of the sector is still doing things, and incredible things that I’m not diminishing at all, that you’re also seeing citizens and members of the general public that are able to ask the scientific questions and that are able to lead part of the discussion or have more of a back-and-forth exchange with the scientists who are leading on the projects, but you’re also able to see the outflow of information, not just going to a centralised academic institution that does things with hit but then that data being made available to the people that are actually working on the projects where they’re empowered to then act on it themselves and actually be the conservationists and do something, you know, it really depends on which project you’re talking about but I think that’s part of what we really need and this, you know, ties right back in to Conservation Optimism and everyone identifying as a conservationist because I think it’s really important that in this increasingly fragmented and threatened world that we live in, we don’t just need academics and practitioners, we need a billion conservationists.
NICK: Absolutely, we need 8 billion conservationists. Thinking about careers advice then and hearing about your kind of potted career history so far, presumably people come to you now and again and say, I’d love to work in conservation, you know, how do I get a conservation job? What sort of answer would you give people maybe leaving university or maybe they’re mid-career and switching like you did from Disney. What’s that kind of sort of key things people should bear in mind when looking to start their professional career?
CHELI: It’s funny because I’ve had this conversation with several people. When I get into conversations with people that have a really different background, one of the things I point out about myself is figuring out what it is the skillsets that you already have that are unique and the things that you are interested in, curious about and passionate about that are not conservation, that you can bring with you to the sector. Because some people, when they are looking to make a career change, want to get out in the field doing safaris and all of the, you know, trekking through the wilderness, which is amazing and I’m super jealous of those people. We can’t all be those people and the skills that you have built up in a different career track actually have a lot of valuable currency within conservation and so for me, having had a lot of experience with digital technology, with social media, with some of these different kinds of communications channels, ranging from film but also education etc., this isn’t something that I had intentionally not completely stepped away from but have brought with me so that I bring in that side of things to conservation, so with Conservation Optimism trying to build this movement, trying to bring people together has been a logical progression of skills and so I think that it’s really important for people that are looking to make a change into conservation that before they completely throw the baby out with the bathwater, have a look at what they’ve built up to this point in their careers and think, how could the skills that I currently have be used to further benefit conservation?
NICK: Yeah and I think that’s really great advice, particularly for career switchers, don’t start from scratch. You’ve built up loads of skills and knowledge which is very much transferrable into the sector so if you understand the sector and what they’re looking for, which is an awful lot of different types of jobs, and if you understand yourself, what you’re really good at and what do you love doing, I think those two things are really important and that’s what you’ve done so successfully.
CHELI: Oh thank you. I think there’s two other things I would say. One is, to not wait for the perfect time or the perfect situation, so there’s like two halves of this. On the one hand, don’t wait around until the timing is right and everything is perfect and you’ve got it all figured out because you’ll never have it all figured out, the timing will never be perfect. If you want to make a change, partly you have to commit and just do it. On the other hand, with my PhD and with my current positions, part of that has been realising that there is a value in making sure that what you’ve got in terms of a plan is really well thought through and well developed. And so I didn’t jump into my PhD immediately, even though I wanted to, I waited until I had what I thought was a really good idea and a really clear vision for myself and my career and then took a little bit of time to go and do some other jobs and some other preparations and then took that next step. And I don’t regret that at all, actually I think that was something that was really difficult to do at the time but was really beneficial in the long run.
NICK: Great advice, thank you. So just to finish off, I wouldn’t mind asking you a question or two which are kind of much more open questions really, just to see how you kind of view the world, view the industry. If you could change one thing that would make a real impact on the planet, if I made you the conservation tsar for the day, you’re not just a director of Conservation Optimism, you’re the director of Planet Earth, and if you click your fingers and make one change, enact one law, whatever it might be – what would you like to see happen? What thing would you really like to kind of shift?
CHELI: Oh gosh, that’s a really difficult question. Well as I’ve said a couple of times, I think the biggest challenge for conservation – it’s not about knowing what to do, because we’ve got a lot of really good information, we’ve got a lot of really good models for success, we’ve got a lot of really amazing, talented, intelligent people around the world that are working really hard for conservation. I don’t think the issue is knowing what to do, I think the issue is getting more people fully and passionately committed to making a difference, even if it’s not their vocation, it’s their avocation. They’re working in some other field but they are also passionately identifying themselves as conservationists who are actively striving to make a difference. I guess this goes back to what I was saying about seeing the opportunities in 2020 for this tipping point for us to have a moment where we really start taking biodiversity as seriously as now most people are taking climate change. That wasn’t an overnight change, a lot of people took a long time to realise the real and present danger that climate change is presenting. It’s not 100% of everyone yet but most people have woken up and said, we have to do something, we’re gonna put pressure on our governments, we’re gonna put pressure on businesses, we’re gonna change the way we live and in small ways, and hopefully building larger and larger constantly, people are really starting to act in different ways in response to the climate challenge and I think the number one thing that we need is for people to wake up to the biodiversity crisis and to see it not as this overwhelmingly negative, impossible, fatalistic, predetermined failure but to see it as a challenge that they have to rise to and to really become empowered to be, like I said, those billion, or 8 billion, as you said, conservationists.
NICK: Fabulous, great. Well look, thank you so much for jumping on the podcast and finding the time to chat today, I really appreciate it. If people want to kind of find out more and get involved in Conservation Optimism, where should they go, what should they do?
CHELI: If you want to get involved, the best place to go is probably our website, ConservationOptimism.org and you can find all of our different social media channels, you can register for a profile, you can find out about the summit. Our most active channel is our Twitter channel and so you can find that from the website which is just ConservationOptimism.org and come and share your stories, find out what other people are saying and hopefully apply to come and share at our summit in September, because we would love to have as much representation as possible and we’re really looking forward to it.
NICK: That’s great, fantastic. Thank you so much. Good luck with Conservation Optimism! Good luck with your maternity leave and take care. Thanks again for taking the time to chat.
CHELI: Thank you so much, Nick.
NICK: Ok well I hope you enjoyed that everyone, if you did then please do hit that ‘subscribe’ button to get notified when new episodes are live and also give us a rating as it really helps us to get in front of more people. If you enjoy the interviews we’ve collated the best advice from over 400 professional conservationists into a free e-book, which you can download from the bottom of our website. And finally, if you’ve got any questions or suggestions for the podcast, please tweet them to @ConserveCareers, we’d love to hear from you. Ok, till next time guys, this is Nick signing out.